Suppose you are in a deep sleep and you are dreaming... inside that dream everything is consistent with everything else... taste, gravity... love and pain ! Will you realize being within the dream that you are dreaming ? From my experience, the moment I encounter an inconstancy, a big one, most of the time I reach a conclusion that I am dreaming and just after that moment I either wake up completely or wake up for a moment and then continue dreaming and again forget that I woke up ! But if I don't see any inconstancy, everything just goes on and on like reality...
Now what is an inconsistency ? For an example, I see I am flying but not freely, I do swim in the air and I rise high up... but at some point I realized may be I am breaking "momentum conservation" as the air was not viscous enough ! And after that I dropped badly and the dream broke down ! Now "Noether's Theorem" is an established fact and so my flying failed... but see actually I was flying and within that dream I could still continue but I couldn't ! Now suppose someone doesn't know anything about the laws of nature will continue flying like me in his/her dream ! If I experience everything obeying the established laws of nature or something that is not yet established or we have never experienced and that which doesn't seem to contradict the established facts or may be I don't know the correspondence principle to compare that new experience with established facts, then I'll never realize whether its allowed or not and I'll go on experiencing it until I realize any inconsistency !
Once you realize the reality of the dream are you able to play around with the laws ? Are you able to suddenly jump like superman ? At least I can't do that as after the realization that I am dreaming usually leads me to waking up... and after waking up I cannot effect the reality within dream... as its a past ! So a person cannot effect the reality outside the dream and when one awakes one cannot alter anything within the dream which is now past !
The point is, are we all dreaming ?
In the primitive stage of mankind, almost everything was "unexplained" as we din't notice the laws... but then we started to see the patterns... and so discovering laws of nature, but what if all of these are laws of "a nature" that exist within a "long perfect dream" ? Suppose one has the ability to stay inside the dream at will even after knowing that he is dreaming so he will be able to play around with the laws as he know its all a dream... But only if he can stay within the dreaming without waking up !
Sounds like Matrix ? Or "advaita philosophy" ? Whatever, but can anyone prove logically that "it is impossible" ? I expect logical flaws in it.
Can you define the onset of dream and bring out a one to one relation with biological birth? Secondly, why should we dream? What is the purpose? Where are we then? I mean, where is our actual space of existence? Other points can be justified. Even re-birth can be explained. But please see into those points.
ReplyDeleteThe answer to the 1st question might lie in the fact that everyone's dream is well connected to every-other's. But precisely, how are they connected? The answer can solve the mystery of telepathy or the oneness of mind as mentioned by Vivekananda.
ReplyDeleteOnset of a dream:
ReplyDeleteAs we never remember how exactly our dream gets started... I mean exactly this moment my dream started... this thing is never clear.. we never know, what sometimes we precisely know is the moment our dream ends! The starting of a dream and the starting of a life both merges from an unconscious to conscious after sometime... so this is some sort of a connection.. but notice that we yet don't know more than 95% of this world.. the standard model of particles which is our greatest testified theory doesn't explain many phenomena like "dark matter/energy, neutrino mass..." etc etc... so the exact mechanism of how the dream started and its connection to biological birth will stay unclear for now ! At this point I speculate that the other entities who are there in my dream will see how I entered the dream... and yes, this theory needs that all our dreams are connected, we all who are living now are essentially in a same dream... along with the known universe.
Purpose:
frankly speaking the purpose of our "earthly dreams" are also not known... Freud tried but his theory is also incomplete! Some believe, we dream to fulfill our unfulfilled desires... I don't agree, its not always true. Sometimes you dream about the death of a dear one, do you desire that ? So as we don't know the purpose of "earthly dream" that we dream almost every night, I for now don't have any idea why do we dream ! One possibility can be "there is no purpose" it just happens... because no one will wish to be born like a inferior human being and go through all the pain... but some people do... some people really enjoy pain and sufferings... some people enjoy "roller coaster" too... and some don't... !
Our plane of existence:
Its not compulsory that our bigger "life dream" will be in an exact "one to one correspondence" with the "daily dreams" ! There can be many differences again there are many similarities, let me site some: some people say they can't see colors in their dreams, but many do see... at least I see. Now if I consider, when we start dreaming our lives we actually lack some or most of our actual abilities, as for example its quite possible that we actually reside in an extra dimensional space-time, may be greater than 4 dimension, and in our "life dream" we can only perceive 3 space + 1 time dimension, then its pretty clear that from within the dream it will be heard to guess how does our actual plane of existence looks like ! Its my proposal that we actually have a much bigger level of consciousness that resides in higher dimensions and in our dreams we reside in lower dimensions.
As a student of Quantum Mechanics you know that this world is even just collection of waves... the world you see that appears solid is actually not, it is we the conscious observers whose observation forces the "wave function to collapse" and make it appear like solid... if you can switch of "electromagnetic force and strong and weak force" the world won't remain opaque for you anymore!
I agree this theory needs more and more criticism to reach a better state, so please contribute your ideas....
there are a lot of moments when inside a dream we are concious that we are dreaming...it does not always lead to waking up.....and we do continue to play around ....manipulating the dream to our wish..it happens with me......but no we dont suddenly want to jump like superman..because the dream was already set ..with a very limited no of settings and people and climax...its even more limited than real world in a sense
ReplyDeletethere is another interesting question
but what if the very definition of dream is another part of the dream...if some one never knew what a dream was ....then maybe he will believe that he leads life in two realms....with two different sort of experiences...but dream life as we know it is not a very concrete experience...things are hazy....we dont very clearly remember a lot of things...like temp...humidity...light.position(co-ordinates)..we are just concerned with the thing that excites us or repels us...and the same dream is repeated again and again..sometimes continued also..so the nature of time is also contradicted....
i think freud was right there ...i have not gone through his dream interpretation completely..but yes i do think that dreams are just for wish fulfilmet...and its not just as easy as u mentioned
are our lives a dream in which the laws as we know it are just a set of axioms....maybe a master dream....\but there is no way to wake up..our thinking process itself is a part of that dream...so how do you wish to analyse it if you are in it...it is a inconsistency....and i dont think one can play around with the laws..its a different sort of dream...the laws dont break..even if some "madman" thinks that life is dream...
and frankly i am NOT INTERESTED..I LIKED DREAM for their relations to our innate wishes and desires....i dont much wish
to debate Matrix again...as you said.
also another thing that you might be interested ...plz read
ReplyDeletehttp://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2011/03/07/why-information-cant-be-the-basis-of-reality/
if information was all it was...then maybe this dreaming concept may lead us to something.....
maybe the fourth dimension....if we ask it!
@sandipan.... your points in fact supports the dream theory.
ReplyDelete".things are hazy....we dont very clearly remember a lot of things...like temp...humidity...light.position(co-ordinates)..we are just concerned with the thing that excites us or repels us...and the same dream is repeated again and again..sometimes continued also."
The hazy-ness only arise when we wake up, we don't remember much and the same thing can be applied here. I can compare this with a "childhood death", the experiences of our very childhood are also hazy and we only remember the most significant incidences of our starting days. But some dreams are crystal clear.. almost like a reality... and by the way I said earlier that exact "one-to-one" relation may not exist as we don't know what is outside the dream (at least for now).
And yes you are right sometimes you are pretty conscious that you are in a dream that is because you have sensed something that would never happen in reality and such serious "impossibilities" you don't see in the real world so there is no way of questioning the reality... and if we do experience something unusual we try to reason it or leave it saying future understanding will explain it. The reason behind this is the new unusual experiences are usually doesn't contradict the existing well established laws !
And I am not suggesting "it from a bit" but rather I am saying there is no it even no bit ! And about "shooting at the heart and the mind disappears" I am not sure... I am only sure that I don't know what state of dream exactly he/she is now after getting shot !
And this is quite different from "matrix" but the "one" can play around and manipulate things probably if he/she really somehow can wake up and rejoin the dream as really conscious, unfortunately we don't see anyone like that, may be because we don't know how to see outside the dream or really realize that its a dream.. may be no one does, but I am not sure whether its impossible or not.
The purpose of dream matters a lot here. What you are citing are reasons behind a dream. By the way I don't agree with what Freud says. One does not purposefully dream. But yeah you can trace out its origin. May be I am scared of death so I dream the passing away of one of my beloved ones. Now I cannot explain you as to why I dream of five headed snakes. But there has to be an explanation for this even. You need not always have a purpose or an inner-wish to dream. But if you are to exist in some n-dimensional space to dream of your supposed existence in a lower 4-D space with all laws of a 4-D space holding good, so you remain oblivious to any inconsistency within the dream, the dream has to have a purpose. Moreover your present mind is a product of your dream only. Using this mind to employ these limited laws to realise whether or not its a dream is something near impossible. Perhaps the answer lies in practice...
ReplyDeletemay be constant thinking of this can lead to the discovery...
ReplyDeleteWhen I dream that I am playing cricket, which mind was involved in the game? Certainly not the one which is there in the Sauvik of Sauvik's dream. The mind which dreams actually springs out whatever of thoughts and perception that come our way when we dream. So when you realize for a fractional while that you are dreaming, the mind which dreams is actually executing the thought process. This mind is responsible for even a dream within a dream. A virtual living object cannot possess any mind. But as per dream theory, if this existence is a dream, how come you even make a guess that you are dreaming. If you are able to guess, it explains the reality of the existence of your mind, which implies that this existence is not a dream. However, I am not sure as to if or not this is our only existence. I mean can there be primary and secondary existence. A dream analogy can plugged in. But to say that all happenings lie in a space of dream is a little bit far-fetched. However, we should keep on with our efforts to dig out the truth. I might be wrong in my logic as well. But please contemplate.
ReplyDeleteIts always the original mind that is playing the conscious rule everywhere. But the question is does the whole mind gets involved in a dream ? then how does the metabolic process goes on ? A fraction of the mind gets involved in dream creating its own world, thinking that its the whole consciousness but actually its not ! Imagine a brain with innumerable neurons capable of their own fake-consciousness... imagine the brain rests in higher dimensions and each of these neurons gets involved in different dreams but remember that they are connected by some sort of a signal say electromagnetic... ! So these neuron-kinda consciousness bits will be involved in dreams as different personalities... think of the situation like this:
ReplyDeleteThe whole personality is the "collection of all these neuron kind of things" like an ocean, and each neuron-kinda things are like small ripples, so the peaks of these waves will correspond to apparently different personalities in their dreams, but as a whole, that is the whole infinite set of these ripples make the ocean and hence residing in actual plane of existence. So the ripples appear as you and me and him or her... busy in dreaming this reality, but all these consciousness-bits actually together gives existence to the actual whole-consciousness-sea. Each peaks may behave independently (apparently) but the "continuity" requires that all these ripples are connected to each other being created in the same ocean-fluid. Different modes of vibration may lead to different personalities or whatever.
Regarding the inconsistencies, I must say that we encountered a severe inconsistency when we discovered the "dual" nature in Quantum Mechanics, and we never could understand whether something is "particle" or is a "wave", we just left that discussion using Copenhagen interpretation ! These are such inconsistencies... and they hints that this world may not be so consistent and perfect !
it is still Matrix to me.....how is it different?
ReplyDeleteI had this idea much before watching matrix and found it different from matrix... I think my last comment shifts it further away from matrix. By the way, I don't think discussion will lead to any better understanding and "what will lead?" I don't know the answer ! Perhaps we can think of more direct tests/experiments or methods... otherwise its a theory at least up to now that can't be rejected and if I don't believe then there is no use of it too ! But people searching for some "meaning" or something to stick to may get some hope.
ReplyDeletein Matrix there is a master program in which we all are part...ripples if you like to call them..so the program is the master consciousness....and why metabolism is required? metabolism is a part of the dream world ..and is required in dream rules...
ReplyDeletei just joined it because i thought a we can discuss more...that was the point...whether it leads to somewhere is another question...and mostly does not matter...
by the way oi ganta suncho ni
chol rastay from the bengali movie autograph
amar bettala lagse
@sandipan... the master consciousness is within the dream exists when you enter the matrix, but outside they are disconnected (I didn't watch the 3rd part of matrix so don't know whats there in the last part) ! Yes metabolism is a part of dream, I was just clarifying Saubhik about something ! But I mentioned metabolism just to show that our whole consciousness is not involved in a dream and it can perform different tasks simultaneously so why not different dreams... may be in these daily earthly dreams we never experience that but if I allow the super brain, the actual one to be infinite or at least big enough then its possible to give it the capacity to act microscopically as different consciousness but macroscopically as one. By the way probably this sorta ideas hit matrix makers as many people have such notions developed independently. But my point is to push it much further, I intended to rectify all its loop holes by rigorous arguments but then I thought you people may loose interest eventually... if you are seriously taking this, either to accept or to reject, but taking the idea seriously then the discussion will be indeed vital. @sandipan draw some more connection with matrix and let me see what differences can I bring and in which way matrix is just a fancy idea and this dream theory is serious...
ReplyDeletePS: gaan ta bohut din aage sunchlam... tukra tukra images... in fact your "hazy dream" er moto pray... bhala
the master consciousness is not within the dream...it is the reality of the world where we all are little programs doing everyday tasks within the program..which creates the dream.the program is an artificial intelligence sort of thing..
ReplyDeletewe are not disconnected outside the dream we all are fed to the central network which creates a coherent dream for all of us...
and the master consciousnesses does not exist within the dream...it is exactly an outside agency working..giving us the illusion of gravity ...quantum mechanics ....metabolism etc...
just like in a video game....
regarding taking it further..i think one of the question is of individuality...if we all are part of a superconsciousness..then how much individuality we have in that real state....Does the I exist?...if not then if we commit suicide no change will be there in that state..no repercussions...(considering an infinite superconciousness)...if yes then maybe the dream will end..atleast this dream...and we will enter another dream...or we will really wake up...
ReplyDeleteanother question ...why should someone really wake up and then return to the dream to bend its rules....just if i decide that this is a dream..i should be able to bend it...maybe this will lead to termination of my tenure in this dream...and emotions and sensitivity programs will fight with my decisions to show me that this world is real...
and i think thats the crux of the matter individuality and decisions....
that you can choose your reality is the thing...that conciousness is completely an independent identity within you...and that conciousness is not a dream...
wistful maybe
@sandipan... then that must be in the last one of the trilogy that I missed ! I thought master program was of course an external program but unless you plugin yourself (back of your head) you'll reside in the real disconnected world... when you are plugged in only then you'll be controlled by the master program... but in the last scene of "reloaded" I suspected because Neo was able to stop a machine by his will force or something ! But I assume, master program then must be designed by someone who can stay outside the illusion if he/she chooses to ? That will mean there exists an external real world where everyone is disconnected... but what I am saying is the other way around... we seem to be disconnected but in actual plane of existence we are connected.. like different pulses (seems different) of different shapes but on a single string... inside the dream the peaks of the pulses appear and not the whole string.. so we appear to be different... but if some pulses grows really big it can draw other pulses too (imagine the string analogy) and that happens to be case of influence by big guys... in fact theoretically its possible to stretch the string by one person so much that all the pulses merges to him/her (doesn't matter gender may not exist) ! Think about this... think about guys like Jesus, who probably pulled the string too much to draw many pulses to merge to him !
ReplyDeleteplugin plug out ..creator of the matrix etc..are unnecessary details...to create empathy amongst audiences......
ReplyDeleteu are taking it too literally
yes by plugin plug out is just to create empathy but I used it to show that there is a "merging in and out" when out you are out of the master program (assuming this is the case up to third part of the trilogy)... but here you are never out because you are probably the master program... Mr. x1,x2,x3,...xn are appearing to be different "i"s and again they all together form the big "I" the infinite master consciousness... these "i"s will resist to cease because after all they are individual may be faking but still for quite sometime they exist and when they exist they will resist to cease as you pointed out... "maybe this will lead to termination of my tenure in this dream...and emotions and sensitivity" yes I do agree and thats what I am trying to say but see this is really tough to reach because of the apparent perfections and absence of any compelling "inconsistencies" ! We can always keep aside any trouble found for future explanation and we will find one too and that will keep this fantasy going on forever... but for the sake of argument, suppose we start suspecting for no season or for the sake of philosophy and we start getting a little sense then I think our instinct the instinct of the small "i" will resist it violently.. may be over skepticism is a "safe guard" of the individual small consciousness "i" to protect itself from being ceased to exist.
ReplyDeleteBoia matle bhala oibo ..apatoto baddei...ami ektu onyo kichu kkoite aslam...
ReplyDeleteBut baddeo....mayb continue later
@Sandipan... actually ami ektu aage bhabslam tumare phone kormu tarpor bhablam j kun jagat kitat thakbay tachhara phone e khulia discuss kora jayna aramo laagena.. may be samna samni jodi ek ad masor modhye oa jaito.. kintu unfortunately amar baaler ijigat ami kuno aram paitamna... tumar hokano ratre dhoro didi siliguri turi gela gia r amra club o gia jinista ba aro bohut kichchhu discuss korle.. mane orokom ekta ichchha korer...
ReplyDeleteSuggested way to test, is it matrix or not:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2216189/Do-live-Matrix-researchers-say-way-prove-do.html
Original paper:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1210.1847v2.pdf